Cultural Appropriation and Spirituality with Pavithra Banavar (Part II) Transcript.
Pavithra: I feel like I've totally burned all of that to the ground. And now I'm like, starting over on a new foundation which feels really nice.
Nicole: Hello and welcome back to Multitudes, a place where you can tune in for wide ranging conversations to provide you information, education and entertainment for your day. I'm your host, Nicole Carter.
Today we are continuing our conversation with Pavithra Banavar. Pavithra is a spiritual healer and owner of FlowinShakti and she also has her own podcast; The Divine Rebel. And in part one, we introduced Human Design and Gene Keys, and we also talked about Pavithra’s really interesting story of how she started out in construction, working with her brother, to becoming a nurse during the height of COVID, and then pivoting to starting her own business that focuses on spirituality and healing.
And in this episode, we continue talking about Human Design, but more so how Pavithra is rethinking her relationship to Human Design that I found so illuminating and interesting. We talk about cultural appropriation and her connection to spirituality and religion. We talk about Hinduism, and Pavithra’s connection to India. And I found this conversation to be so helpful to think about how we can question and rethink the systems in our lives. And I hope that you find it as interesting as well.
How has your relationship to Human Design and Gene Keys changed over time, and how are you feeling about the systems now?
Pavithra: Yeah, that's such a good question because I think when I first found it, I was like all in, just, like I said, I fell down the rabbit hole of it, and was like, oh my God, like, this is incredible. And then it's like slowly, I mean, I do think as more people obviously are finding Human Design and even Gene Keys. But I think Human Design has really grown so much over the past few years, and I've been seeing so many people who work with it to help people in their businesses and sort of that aspect of it, which I think is all great and I'm here for everybody doing their own thing, and, but I wasn't seeing a lot of depth with it, which I think that there can be so much depth in there.
And so, I just wasn't seeing people talking about kind of like people's individual journeys, like with their designs or going into that deconditioning process and spending the time with it.
It kind of felt like it was almost like instant fix of; okay, you find Human Design and then all of a sudden you use it in your business and you're a millionaire. And maybe that works for some people. It obviously didn't work for me. And I'm not saying that I even spent that much time really using it in business, but it's, to me it just felt like, okay, this is just another like instant fix that we're trying to put on something instead of saying, you really need to spend the time like getting to know yourself.
Because I mean, yeah, if the whole point is getting like deep into your deconditioning, I doubt that that happened so quickly. Like, all of a sudden, you're just making money in your business and there's no, issues, right? I think for me, one of the big things was the fact that both of these systems were channeled by white men and kind of used, and use all of these like ancient systems, but yeah, we weren't talking about that. It's just, okay, they came from these white men and now we're talking about like Chakras and Kabbalah and all these systems, and etching, that have come from these ancient traditions, and yet we're not kind of going back to the source. It's like we're just kind of taking what we've been given.
And I will say like another thing I did notice pretty much right away, when I came in to kind of talking about Human Design or just even like looking it up, was; there was just a lot of gatekeeping by white women, I felt. Just, it felt to me like there was just a lot of about, “Oh, we have the information and we'll give it to you.” Well, I don't really need you in the middle, I can go and look this up myself or these systems are obviously coming from somewhere. Like, I can look this up myself, but it just, it felt like there was a lot of gatekeeping there.
And one of the things I think that really changed for me over the past, I would even say like couple of months or like when I've been looking at my relationship to Human Design is; I was having this conversation with a friend of mine and it was brought to my attention that it's like; the system very closely resembles capitalism, if you really looked at it. It's like you are kind of told that the generators and manifesting generators, these like sacral beings are sort of here as like the worker bees who have all the energy to do the work.
And then meanwhile it's like the manifesters and projectors and reflectors who don't have that energy, should just rest. And we're just meant to sort of guide and, like it has a very hierarchical system that it's like, I know people try to obviously put a good spin on it. I know that they try not to use any of that language, but if you really go back to the source, it's like there's actual not even interviews, but classes and stuff taught by the man who channeled the Human Design.
He goes by the name Ra Uru Hu which in itself is appropriation. Yeah, like I've seen classes where he talks about generators basically being slaves. And that's exactly how he talks about them, what he calls them. And it's like when you really look at that, it's like, is this a system that I necessarily want to be associated with when we are really trying to move away from that type of rhetoric and language at this point?
Nicole: That's fascinating, I think, to think about like the connection to capitalism, and I have definitely thought about that as a projector that sense of projectors, are here to lead in the new paradigm. And when you think leader or follower, there's a sense of what about the idea that people are equal, should you be ingraining like you're a natural born leader and this other person is not; they're a natural born like worker bee essentially.
And then what am I supposed to do about that when it says a system that I'm finding to be very interesting, but then there are all these potentially problematic aspects of it that I feel like I haven't really seen a lot of people talking about. Yeah, I definitely felt that feeling of a lot of the Human Design readers that I have encountered are white women. So, I'm curious about how you have dealt with that and also like the cultural appropriation in Human Design and also in the spirituality space in general.
Pavithra: I know it's something that I kind of go back and forth on because it's like sometimes I want to fight the system and really spend all my time fighting back against it. But then other times I'm just; I don't know, it's like anything else, I think, where you kind of get tired of being the person that's always, “Well, let's see what the problem is over here, right?”
I mean, I have talked about it like I've talked about several things, like on my own podcast; certain episodes, I know I did one about the capitalism thing and then I did one about the five things I find problematic about it, which I think the other thing was sort of just, yeah, like how it puts you in a box, which I think that just naturally happens with anything. I think they're like, we as human kind of like to be put in boxes and like to be told that, “Okay, this is what you can do and can't do.”
I go back and forth because sometimes I'm like, “Well, should I keep sort of really working with it and maybe trying to just put my own spin on things?” Or I think from the beginning I've always tried to sort of approach it from a way that didn't have that usual language attached to it. And I see other people who try to, but I just think the system itself is just entrenched in that because of the wording and the way that it is.
But so yeah, so I'd like to say I have an answer to it, but I don't really have an answer to it because it's like I'll still sometimes work with it, but I've moved away from doing like sessions with people, and kind of like I don't talk about it quite as much as I used to anymore. So, it is things that like I'm kind of in that way moving away from, because I don't have an answer, but I also don't know that I should be profiting off of it quite so much anymore. So, I've just chosen to sort of take a step back from it.
Nicole: That's a very thoughtful approach to it as well. And you mention in your writings, you do say that you encourage people who are interested in Human Design to spend time examining their own relationship to Human Design, and we'll also put those episodes in the show notes.
Pavithra: Yeah, I think because I had to do the same thing with Reiki. To be honest with you, I've had to take a step back from a lot of things that I felt like, “Am I in right relationship with this?” You know when I came in to doing Reiki, I did a training online, like something really quick. And I'm not saying that I was doing anything out of Integrity, because I felt like when I was in sessions with people, I felt like I was doing it in integrity.
But yeah, I think I just had to come to a place where it's so, you know, “Why are you doing this? And is it even the right thing to do anymore?” It wasn't that I had to, is that I chose to take a step back from it. Because at some point I'm like, ‘Okay, this isn't your cultural lineage.’
And then I saw people who were honestly talking about reclaiming that cultural lineage. And to me, like, how am I going to talk about it on one hand, but then also exploit it on the other? That to me just seems you really need to look at yourself then, because like I talk about trying to reclaim my own cultural lineage, which I don't think will ever happen at this point. But, you know, I talk to people who see what's happening, but then if I'm also like going out there and trying to, like, use other people's cultural practices, that just seems to me like, ‘Okay, what am I even doing here?’
Nicole: You are working through the ideas of what is that mean to reclaim your own cultural lineage and provide services or help people through that lens. I'm curious why you think you won't be able to reclaim that or like, how has that journey been?
Pavithra: I think when I say that, the saying that always comes is, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, you can't reclaim it; not because you can't reclaim it personally, as in saying, okay, this is like my cultural lineage. This comes from my people. But I think Indian culture is everywhere.
It's gotten to a point where it's every single place you go has some Indian god, like on their altar, and people talk about yoga and do all the things like everywhere. And especially now because I live in Southern California and it's just literally everywhere at this point. And so, I think there is a feeling that we're never going to really take it back, like it's never going to be fully ours anymore. And there's also something to be said for globalization and the fact that these things are going to spread, because that's the nature of our world.
And I think it's great that people know about it, because obviously, looking back at my own childhood and the fact that, when I came to the US, people didn't really know about India and our culture and our traditions, and now it's, okay, you don't have to like really explain it and it's way more acceptable or accepted now. And those things are great, that we've seen that growth.
But yeah, I guess to me I just feel, okay, but you're really not going to ever fully reclaim it and say, ‘Okay, this is just ours,’ because yeah, yoga is everywhere. People talk about like the Chakra system and like Bollywood, all the things, which I mean, I think is great on one hand, but then on the other it's sort of like, “So then what's really ours?”
I guess there isn't like that sacred aspect to it anymore when you really look at it and not just like Indian culture, but any culture that has been colonized and been exploited in any way, right? There is like a feeling of; we were sort of seen as these savages and we weren't civilized and we needed the white man to come and teach us like how to live, right? There was that aspect of it. And now you turn around and you're seeing white people basically profit off of those teachings that you were told you were savages and you were uncivilized for. And I think that's what's really hard about it.
A while ago I saw a post or a story on Instagram that was talking about; it was about nutrition and like the indigenous communities and how back when they were colonized, it's like the white man came and was like, “Oh, you have to eat three meals a day because, it's uncivilized to eat whenever you're hungry and whenever, you know, your body tells you,” Right? And that's how they were seen as uncivilized for doing that.
But then now it's become a thing where, oh, but now you're getting nutritionists who tell you like, “No, it's okay to eat this way.” I think it's that. I think it's the idea that it's like the things that we were sort of looked down upon are now the things that we're expected to kind of like hold these people up on a pedestal for. And I think that's what makes it the hardest.
Nicole: Yeah, that history is so painful. And then to see that being used in a way that is erasing that painful history, I think is just really hard to witness. I'd love to also talk about your family heritage and the influences of your family background, then, how your family shaped you, if there were particular family members that shaped you in terms of your religious beliefs’ practices.
Pavithra: So yes. So, I'm a practicing Hindu, and I would actually say that my family is not very strict when it comes to practicing Hinduism. Like, obviously we go to Temple, we have our own practices and all of that. But I think Hinduism in itself is very much more of a spiritual practice to me. We don't really have these like strict rules of Temple on Sundays or like you have to worship in a certain way.
It's like we worship at home. We have our own altars and we have our own like holidays, things like that. And so, I kind of grew up sort of not having to be so strict about it. I mean, there were definitely rules and things like that. But our parents would kind of say, “Oh, we don't do this on certain days or we're not supposed to do these kinds of things in…”
But I think for me, what was so interesting and I think probably a lot of people who immigrated to the US or any other country outside of India, it's like we really had to sort of assimilate to that culture, right? And so, I think when I look back, it's not so much even that my parents weren't strict. I mean, they really aren't.
That's not really how I grew up. But I think also there was that thing of we came here when I was five and it was the nineties and really, I think my parents had to assimilate and there weren't a lot of classes and things like that, that they have now. Like now I see my nieces who are younger and they go to like language classes and Hindu classes and they learn all of these things and it's great. But back then we didn't have those. And if we did, it's not something my parents required us to go and sit in these classes.
But so, it's really interesting to look back now, because there's a part of it that's, I don't know how much of it is that my parents felt like, okay, we're in this new country, and maybe it wasn't even something they had thought about that; okay, we should assimilate.
But, yeah, I think that as you come here, it's things like people would ask, “Oh, what's that red dot on your mom's forehead?” And then she slowly stopped wearing the Bindi and stopped dressing, you know, Indian clothes. And then when she went to work, she would dress in Western clothes. And it's just things like that that you just slowly start to kind of like move away from.
And so, I think that's probably a lot of what happened. But I will say that even family wise, like I have people in my family who are devout Hindu, pray every day. But yeah, it's not something that's really been pushed on me. It's something that I do practice, but it's not something I feel like I have to do strictly.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for sharing about your family. And yeah, I definitely feel like, well, my dad immigrated from Barbados and just having that experience of witnessing a parent navigate their own assimilation journey is really interesting. And as a child, like, you don't realize all of the complexities that they're dealing with.
Pavithra: Yeah, I think mostly because, we're dealing with our own, right? Where it's not even so much that I remember so much about, like growing up in India because I was still little. But I think the idea that we are dealing with our own assimilation, right? Going to school, dealing with kids our age and all the questions and not trying to stand out or be weird and all that stuff.
And then you don't even think about all the ways that your parents are having to deal with it too, and raise kids and it's so interesting now, like being on the other side and being older. It's like now you think about, I'm saying like with my nieces, it's like I watch how different it is for them and even for like my brother and his wife, where it's like now, I mean, it's, oh, everything in Indian culture is out there. People know about it. And so, it's a little more accepted.
But then at the same time, it's so different than the way that we grew up even 30 years ago, which I can't believe it's been 30 years. But yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, no, absolutely. This also makes me think of with your recent trip to India, I'd love to know, like in light of cultural appropriation and working in spirituality, how was it like or what was it like being there and any reflections or thoughts that you've had since that trip?
Pavithra: Yeah, it was, it was a really powerful trip. I kind of knew going in it was going to be very powerful. I didn't know how at the time. I was like, because I hadn't been back in eight years, I think. I just really felt called to go back this year. I was like, okay, at some point I really need to make a trip back. And so, I went with my parents and we traveled around the state of Karnataka; that's where I'm from, that’s where Bangla is.
And we like, traveled around and I hadn't actually like travelled that much, within my own state and had gone to see some old religious and just historical places. And kind of going back and seeing all of that and just seeing like the beauty of I think it's like anything, right? Like when you go to Europe and you see like these architectural places that are amazing, I mean, like the work that they did. So that's kind of how this was.
And I was just, I was amazed by it. And also, kind of seeing the parts of colonization was still around, like you could see places where the British had come and destroyed certain artifacts, you know, and so it was kind of very juxtaposing because it was like, oh, okay, yeah. Like you have all of these things that like we've done, that's our history. But then also that history of colonization is still very much apparent. So that was really interesting.
I guess the most bittersweet thing about my trip was that my uncle passed away unexpectedly towards the end of my trip. And so that was really hard, obviously, on me, but it was also one of the first deaths that I had really seen up close in my family and otherwise. And that just really brought home to me like how deeply our spiritual practices are. I know every religion, every culture will say that, obviously, right? But I think it added a different dimension to this whole talk about spirituality because we sort of look at it and this airy-fairy way here, right? It's all like manifestation and very nice things.
And even when we talk about sort of like how Hinduism has been appropriated into spirituality here, it's so different than seeing it in the lens of like death and the fact that it's such a prevalent part of our everyday life in India. Like, you don't really separate Hinduism and spirituality. You're not praying to the gods for your manifestations and stuff, you're not putting Lakshmi on your altar because you want, like, money in abundance, right? It's just a part of our everyday life there.
So, I think that actually made it way more powerful, even coming back, I could tell, I mean, obviously losing my uncle was really hard and still processing that grief. But then I could just tell I had changed so much. When I came back, I could tell like that, even the way I was like viewing spirituality was so different than when I had left because all of a sudden, I was like, “Yeah, like we're all just on our own journey. I don't need to worry about what so-and-so is doing or …” I think it really changed the way that I looked at it when I came back. Like I could tell I just was coming at it from a different perspective.
I was thinking about this a lot when I first came back was, just instantly, like coming back to America, just put me back in that capitalist grind so fast. I mean, it was like literally within a week of coming back, I was already like, “Okay, well, what's next? What are we doing?” And it was so interesting to watch that process because the whole time I was gone, sure it was vacation, but it was also that I feel like the mindset is so different, like when you leave the US and then when you come back, there's this like instant like hustle mentality you're supposed to get back to.
It took me a while. Like at first, I was sort of like, “okay, I don't, I'm not going to get back into it. I'm going to take my time.” And now I'm just sort of still, okay, I'm not really sure what the next phase is going to look like. I've sort of been not pushing myself, which is hard. I think that's a hard thing to sort of sit back and wait for inspiration and the motivation.
But yeah, so I’ve really been trying to honor the fact that's okay for now. I mean, because I think there is so much of that. I think I've sort of released that idea of, oh, this business needs to be like a multimillion-dollar empire. Like all those things that I think I came into back in like 2020 and 2021, all that is gone. I feel like I've totally burned all of that to the ground. And now I'm starting over on a new foundation which feels really nice. I feel like I finally let go of all of those expectations that I had for myself. So, I think that that's been the most refreshing thing.
Nicole: Yeah, well, I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle and processing that grief as well during this time, or have to check back in. And I love that you're releasing certain ideas and just letting the business become what it needs to become. And yeah, and I'm curious as we come to a close, if there's anything that feels exciting for you that you'd like to share.
Pavithra: Yeah. So, I think for me right now, the most important thing that I'm sort of out here talking about is, just rest. Rest as being like revolution and just being resistance, right? I think that's coming up a lot more for people now, but I think it's something that we really need to look at as a society, is our relationship to rest.
Because as someone who is a recovering perfectionist, I'm not there yet by any means, but I think it's like this past year and a half has really taught me to slow down, which has been really nice, but it's really brought up like a lot of its own work around again, that deconditioning I guess of, how do you do that?
And I see more and more people talking about kind of really slowing down, really resting and it not just being about like physical rest, right? It's more about how we're fighting back against these systems that tell us that we have to be productive 24/7 and all the things.
So, I think that's something that is really important for me right now. So, it's an ongoing struggle, I will say. It's not every day is like this easy thing of, “Oh, I'm just going to take it easy.” It's like, really, like how to get over the guilt and shame of not wanting to be a part of the grind, right? So that's something that I think is coming up for me. Other than that, I'm just out here, just hanging out. I don't know.
Nicole: Well, yeah, I love that. And I feel like that's something so hard in the US as you mentioned, I always feel like when I leave the US, there is a shift in mindset, like the hustle-grind culture is not like right in front of you. And yeah, I think it feels even more revolutionary to consider that in the US. So yeah. How can we support you? This has been wonderful. Thank you so much. I’ve loved chatting with you today.
Pavithra: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. This has been incredible. I loved this whole conversation. Well, you can find me on Instagram at FlowinShakti. And so that's flow like a F-L-O-W-I-N and Shakti is S-H-A-K-T-I. You can find my podcast; The Divine Rebel podcast on any major, wherever you're listening to this one, you can find me. Yeah, exactly.
Nicole: Amazing.
Pavithra: Yeah, under my Substack, so I usually will put my podcast up on the Substack as well, so you can always find me on there. But yeah, pretty much you can find me on Instagram. I'm not very active these days. I'm like, doing my rest thing. But you can always follow me in there.
Nicole: Fantastic. We'll put all of that in the show notes and thank you so much Pavithra for such a beautiful, wide-ranging conversation with a multitude of topics and just a lot of ideas for us to think about as we think about new systems or think about spirituality and how we want to incorporate spirituality into our lives. So, I really so appreciate you being here and it was just such a joy to chat with you.
Pavithra: Thank you so much. Yeah, this was healing for me as well. So, thank you so much. I loved this.
Nicole: The Multitudes podcast is produced by Nicole Carter, and if you're enjoying the show, please leave a rating or a review as it truly helps the show get discovered for new listeners. You can do so by going to my website, multitudespodcast.com, and at the top you can click ‘rate show’ and there you can leave a review and you can contact me via my website or on Instagram at Multitudes.podcast and continue to follow and share with your friends. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.
