Feb. 17, 2023

Fertility Awareness Method (FAM) and Birth Control with Nathalie Daudet Part II (Episode 3)

Nathalie: But when I think about it, I don't really even remember picking up any information on birth control when I was in high school. So, who knows? There are like FAM teen instructors and there’s like a FAM teen program. So, some of that education is happening. You just have to go outside of the school system to get it.

Nicole:Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Thank you for explaining that and also talking. If you are interested and curious about FAM and you have an appointment with your OBGYN, for example, what you can expect or what you might want to prepare for in terms of the conversation you might have. And I would love to move a little bit into the practicalities of FAM and thinking; if someone's listening and they're thinking, am I a good candidate for FAM?

If we could talk a little bit about that and wherever you want to start with in terms of; how would someone start FAM or how would someone start thinking; am I a good candidate for FAM? 

Nathalie:Or maybe you can help me out with it a little bit, Nicole, because I know you have some basis in FAM education. I think being in a stable partnership definitely helps, but it’s not necessarily limited to only having one partner,

Nicole:  Yeah.

Nathalie:Yeah. I think also having the mental time and space to learn.

Nicole:Yeah, for sure.

Nathalie:And just like being in a space in your life where you aren't in crisis and you can really kind of focus at least three months to applying the knowledge. Would you say that's accurate?

Nicole:Yeah, absolutely. I would say for sure someone who is not in crisis and has the mental space and time and patience to know that this is not something that is going to happen overnight and having something in between this time of being able to start FAM and if you're sexually active at the moment, just knowing that it's going to be a while before this can actually be realized.


Nicole:I started thinking about FAM when I started in a serious relationship. And I was in a monogamous relationship and I brought this up with my partner as well as something that I was interested in trying and knowing that there would be ways that I could perhaps educate myself to, then educate my partner about what's going on and that sort of thing.

And then I would say, something that I was curious about and wanted to touch up on, is someone who has like, regular cycles, versus someone who doesn't have regular cycles. I was thinking about, for example, the non-hormonal IUD or should I try FAM first and that sort of thing.

So, those were kind of the questions that were going through my mind when I was deciding about FAM. 

Nathalie:Yeah. No, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your experience because you’ve provoked a couple of thoughts for me. And I think that piece around having a buffer time of, if you're on hormonal birth control, what are you going to use until you've got FAM under your belt? And typically, if you're self-teaching, it will be about three cycles before you can go unprotected.

If you’re working with an instructor, it could be as soon as your first confirmed ovulation. But even once you've started charting with FAM, there's going to be a time in the cycle when you'll want to avoid unprotected sex. So, what are you going to use until then? Is that condoms? Is that a diaphragm? Is that a perfect withdrawal? Alternative sex? 

The world is your oyster. But you’re right. If you're used to having unprotected sex all the time, you can't do that with FAM because there's times in the cycle where you're fertile. And then there might be a little bit of a buffer time until you've really got FAM under your belt.

And if you're wanting to expedite that process, working with instructors is the best way to do that. But you can definitely self-teach, and also go unprotected. And then in terms of regular cycles versus irregular cycles, I love that you brought that up because a lot of people will ask, can I use fertility awareness if I have irregular cycles? Absolutely. With irregular cycles, what's happening is you're typically ovulating at a later… So especially if you have a long cycle, your ovulation is delayed, so you're ovulating later in the cycle. And fertility awareness is based on your own unique cycle and ovulation. So, it doesn't matter when you're ovulating, you will still be able to track it.

And it can almost be even more empowering and insightful with irregular cycles because you're not constantly wondering like, where the heck is my period? You know that ovulation is delayed. With symptothermal fertility awareness methods, they'll sometimes have a calculation to open the fertile window, and in a long cycle, it might mean that you have to use protection for a longer period of time than someone who has earlier ovulation. But that depends on the method. 

So, if you are in postpartum or if you're coming off birth control, or if you have PCOS and you have longer irregular cycles, it just depends on how important going unprotected before ovulation is for you because you might have to wait a little bit if you have irregular cycle. But you can use fertility awareness whether you have a regular cycle or not.

And it can also really help if you are tracking your hormonal health and you want to observe your ovulation and your cycle length. And if you're maybe taking some supplements or medication or changing your exercise or diet or reducing stress, like if you're making any lifestyle changes, you can track all that in a chart as well, which can be really cool.

Nicole:Yeah, absolutely. So, it's basically a way to also help people be informed about their bodies, not just about when they can and can't have unprotected sex, but also where their hormones are and where their period might be if they don't have regular periods yet.

Nathalie:Mm-hmm… Absolutely. And I'm someone who has always had irregular cycles ever since I started charting. And I don't know what I would do without FAM just for like monitoring my health because like I said, when I was really, really burnt out, my first warning sign was that my cycles were becoming 40 or 50 or 80 days long. 

And similarly, in the pandemic, the same thing happened. I was under a lot of stress and my cycles were getting longer. And it's really, really cool to see how stress can impact the length of your cycle, if you have PCOS, or if your cycles are a little bit more sensitive. And then to also see the impact that those changes can have on your cycle health.

It's really, really cool once you start charting to have all that data and to just see kind of your body laid out in front of you on your chart and your whole life laid out on the chart.

Nicole:Yeah, absolutely. It's really an empowering way to look at what your body is doing and how it's changing over the course of your cycle, whether it's longer or shorter, wherever you are. That's a really cool feature I could imagine.  And I'm curious, like as a fertility awareness instructor, do you get people who are more interested in that aspect of it? 

Nathalie:  I would say it's a very small percentage of people who aren't in relationships and just are wanting or just dating and aren't necessarily focused on birth control. I would say it's more of an unexpected side effect for people that once they learn the practicalities of FAM and they're like, “Oh yeah, now I know when I can have sex or when I should avoid unprotected sex,” then they start to really notice like, “Oh my goodness, there's all of this data that my body's giving me.” But in terms of people coming to work with me with that goal in mind, I would say it's a very small percentage.

Nicole:Mm-hmm… Got it. Yeah. That's good to know though that there are things that people can learn and can be empowered by through this. And you mentioned that people who are thinking about FAM need to have the mental space and time, for example, like three cycles or three months.

And what about people who are on hormonal birth control or have irregular cycles? I'd imagine that would take longer for them.

Nathalie:Yeah. Thanks for reminding me to come back to that. Because I know you asked that and I just totally ignored you.

Nicole:Oh, no worries. Yeah.

Nathalie:Okay, so if you have a copper IUD, a non-hormonal IUD, typically you will be ovulating on the copper IUD, but your cervical mucus won't be super accurate for fertility tracking. So, you can chart your temperature if you have a copper IUD in, you can chart your cervical mucus, but you might not see ovulatory patterns in your mucus until you take the IUD out. 

If you're on hormonal birth control, you'll want to come off of birth control before you start charting with FAM. I would say you could start learning fertility awareness before you come off, but you won't be able to track your biomarkers until you come off birth control, because birth control will suppress ovulation in most cases, and there won't really be anything to track unless you want to get into the habit of taking your temperature. 

For the timeframe, the research shows that this varies based on what type of birth control you were on, how long you were on, and what your cycles were like before. So, if you were on for 10 years and your cycles were very irregular before you went on, chances are, not all the time, but chances are more likely that there will be a longer period of transition once you come off to seeing regular cycles or fertile cycles. 

A lot of people will see delayed ovulation when they come off for the first few cycles. Minimal cervical mucus, shorter luteal phases, lighter bleeding. That's kind of the most common thing they see after coming off birth control. But this does depend on the type of birth control. Depo-Provera and the implant and the shots are typically the most disruptive on cycles after coming off, but it's short term, it's reversible.

I usually say for people that can take up to 18 months to see a full return to fertile cycles, especially if you've been on the shot or the implant. If cycles haven't returned and you weren't on the shot or implant, and things are still not progressing to normal by 8 to 12 months, that is 8 to 12 cycles, because cycles can be kind of funky when you first come off, then there might be some underlying hormonal imbalance to take a look at.

But there is this window of time to kind of give yourself grace after you come off that things will slowly on their own and improve over time.

Nicole:Got it. Yeah. Thank you for that. And just for people listening who are thinking, oh, in three months’ time, there might be other factors going on with your personal situation that might make it a little bit longer or a little bit more complicated, and this is really because hormonal birth control, they're changing your hormone levels, but they're also preventing you from ovulating, which is really what you're tracking in fertility awareness. 

Nathalie: Exactly. So, most birth control will suppress ovulation. Depending on the type of birth control you're on, it will prevent conception in different ways. All hormonal birth control essentially replaces the normal rise and fall of your cyclical hormones. So typically, you'll have a rise and fall of hormones in your cycle, but birth control suppresses this rise and fall. And you'll have a more day-to-day or 24-hour cycle of hormones. 

What birth control essentially does is in a regular cycle where you're ovulating and naturally cycling, there'll be a feedback loop between your pituitary and your ovaries. There are hormones that communicate with each other and create this feedback loop that's constantly running back to your brain and down to your ovaries.

And what birth control does is it stops that communication between the brain and the ovaries. So, most birth control will prevent ovulation, like you said, but not 100% of the time. 

The other ways that it will prevent conception is by thinning your uterine lining or altering your cervical fluid, impairing the egg from traveling through the fallopian tube to the uterus. All of those things can happen on birth control, but it really just depends on what type of birth control you're on.

And when you come off, there is this time where your body does relearn how to ovulate again and how to restore that communication between your brain and ovaries, because typically it's been prevented. And so that's why there can be some lapse after you come off where things are just kind of like, it's almost like a second puberty. Your body is relearning those pathways of communication. And so, it can be a little rocky at first, but then the more you ovulate, the more you cycle, your body's like, ‘oh yeah, I remember how to do this. I know these pathways well; I can do this.’

Nicole:Got it. Yes. Thank you for that and that reminder that if you are on hormonal birth control, to understand that this time that you're giving yourself, is really the time that your body's relearning those hormonal pathways and communications. And yeah. And I am curious about, you have first, for those listening, you have a lot of resources on your website and you offer a course on how to do this, and how to check cervical mucus, for example. 

But for anyone listening today who's been hearing about this idea that you do need mental time and space, you do need time to chart, can you talk a little bit about what that means? So, you're checking your temperature every day and you're checking your cervical mucus. And for someone thinking, how much of a time commitment is this?

Is this 10 minutes a day? Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nathalie:Great question Nicole. It doesn’t take very long every day.  It probably takes me 30 seconds a day. I take my temperature with my Tempdrop all night long. When I wake up, I sink that to my phone and it plots it into my fertility chart on my Read Your Body app. And then every time I go to the bathroom, I'm noticing cervical mucus, but I'm doing it while I'm doing something else. It's a habit that's attached to another habit. 

And while I'm going about my day, I'm noticing and paying attention to whether there's been any change in the sensation at the vulva as I go about my daily life. I don't have to do anything extra. The real learning curve is at the beginning when you're learning fertility awareness. Because we're not taught about our bodies and about our hormones and our physiology and how ovulation works. All of the information around learning fertility awareness can be new to a lot of people. And so that is where the learning curve really comes in. And it's not hard. It's really straight forward and it is very common sense, and you're really understanding the hormones, you're understanding how the cycle works, and then you're learning the rules of the method.

So how many high temperatures do I need? How many days past peak day, which is a term we use, in fertility awareness? Do I need it before I'm safe for unprotected sex? How do I determine my safe days at the beginning of the cycle? All of those things are things that you learn at the beginning, and then once you're applying that to the cycle, eventually it becomes common knowledge and you're not actually taking a lot of time to apply that knowledge. You're just putting the data into your chart and then you're using the rules of your method. 

So, more so I would say, when you're learning fertility awareness, doing it at a time when you have the mental capacity to learn a new skill, like any new skill. And asking yourself like, how important is this to me? Do I have just the space in my life to commit to this and stick to learning a new skill and a new habit? And if the answer is yes, then you're not going to have an issue learning FAM because you have an intention to learn the method.

Nicole:Got it. Yes. There's an idea of like, there's an upfront investment of your time, but it's great to hear of your daily habit of taking your temperature and then like it's a 30-second time commitment, more or less than just being aware throughout your day. And yeah. And I'm curious about like, for someone listening and thinking like, is this expensive?

Do I need a fancy thermometer?  I'm imagining you have to pay for an app for a subscription, and then also materials or resources to learn how to do this. Can you talk a little bit about that? If someone's worried about the financial aspect?

Nathalie:So, you can learn FAM for almost free, if you get an oral basal body thermometer for under $20, go to your library, and get a copy of a fertility awareness manual. And then, okay, maybe not free, but under $100, let's say.


Nathalie:And then pay $14 a year for your app subscription. That's the cost of Read Your Body. So there absolutely is a way to learn fertility awareness for really, really cheap. And there also are ways to learn fertility awareness that are more expensive. So, if you don't want to use an oral thermometer and you want to use a wearable thermometer, that's going to be more expensive, but it's not necessary. 

The Barebones oral thermometer is great. If you have regular cycles, you're probably going to find self-teaching easier by reading a manual and applying all the knowledge, but it's absolutely possible. So, the two self-teaching resources I mention or recommend are Taking Charge of Your Fertility and then the Sensiplan manual from Reply OBGYN, it's called Sensiplan Natural and Safe. I find the Sensiplan manual and workbook to be a lot easier to apply than taking charge of your fertility. But both are easily accessible, self-teaching resources. If you work with the fertility awareness educator, it is going to be more expensive. But again, it's not necessary.

And what a lot of people will do, is will start out self-teaching and maybe it'll be totally fine and they apply all the knowledge and use FAM successfully. Or maybe they just want someone to hold their hand and walk them through it, which is where a FAM educator comes in. The Billings ovulation method has a mandate to not turn anyone away.

So, if you really are wanting to work with an educator, but you're financially strapped, you can approach a fertility awareness, a Billings ovulation method in your country, and find an instructor that way. So, there are lots of accessible ways to learn fertility awareness. If you want to self-teach and you have the time and space to dedicate to that, it's absolutely possible to learn for under $100.

Nicole:Yeah, absolutely. There are many different ways and there are Barebones that are more expensive ways, and my understanding too is that the important thing is that you feel comfortable with what you're doing. And this is not something that you can half-ass. You have to make a commitment to it and you have to understand what you're doing. 

Can you talk a little bit about the idea of why can't someone half-ass it and like the effectiveness of this, if they follow all of the rules and apply this every day?

Nathalie:Yeah, so I think it just goes back to making sure you're consistent with how you chart and sticking to a method of fertility awareness. So, you do need to observe your biomarkers every day or almost every day. If you miss a day here or there, it's not a big deal, but if you're missing 75% of the data, it's going to be impossible to interpret. 

So, it's really about staying consistent so that you have an accurate picture of fertility. And this is just especially important if you're strictly avoiding. If getting pregnant is not a huge deal, by all means you can half-ass fertility awareness. It's more, if you really don't want to get pregnant, then you're going to want to follow the rules and not take known risks. When you are using the fertility awareness method properly and working with an educator who can make sure you're charting properly, the method is highly effective.

And I'm hesitant to mention any efficacy rates because it does depend on the method and whether you're working with an educator, but it has been shown to be as effective as some methods of hormonal birth control.  Yeah, so we really can't half-ass it because if you are missing data, you aren't getting an accurate picture of fertility if you are taking risks. 

Fertility awareness is only as effective as whatever method you use in the fertile window. So, if you are fertile and you go unprotected, the risk of pregnancy is going to be higher. The efficacy is very much in your hands in the case of fertility awareness. So, I think a lot of people hear fertility awareness or cycle tracking and think that you know, you're loosely tracking temperature or some ovulation signs. But with fertility awareness-based methods, the method is really designed to be used in its entirety and not in bits and pieces because you're really tracking that window of fertility and you're wanting to make sure that ovulation has occurred. And when you do all of that, the method is quite effective.

Nicole:Yes. I think that's really important for people to understand and think about like that consistency and some of our listeners may not be so worried about becoming pregnant and just knowing that okay, you don't have to track every day, and for people who are trying to avoid pregnancy, that if you miss one day or something like that, it is okay.

Nathalie:Okay. And it's also like if you're missing days around ovulation, that's where you might have to wait a day or two to confirm. You might have to wait a day or two before you can go unprotected. So, it's not the end of the world. 

But if you’re missing like all of your data and you just have a day or two here or there, it's going to be really hard to have anything to refer to in the chart, anything to compare to baseline, and then you won't actually really know where you are in your cycle. 

And I don't want to sound gatekeeping about FAM at all. I think it's just like I speak to, when I'm working with a client, I'm going to be as conservative as possible. I want someone to trust me that if I see something on the chart and I know that they're strictly avoiding, then I'm going to have a chat with them about it. Because I know that I have to have a chat with them about it. 

But just like I have the most conservative approach in mind, and then someone can, a client can take that and do with that what they will. But I want them to trust me. That is the perspective that I take, and most people that I work with are avoiding. And so, if someone is loosely tracking and is okay getting pregnant, that's totally fine. Like I have no judgment on that at all. It's more just knowing your intentions with pregnancy and making sure that you want it to be effective, your behavior needs to match that intention, if that makes sense.

Nicole:Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm curious about, let's say someone speaking for a friend, but also myself, who doesn't wake up every time, if you want to sleep in on the weekend, how problematic is that? Is it just as long as you take it when you wake up?

Nathalie:Yeah. So, with oral basal body temperature, basically, your basal body temperature is your lowest body temperature attained during rest. And so, the reason you want to take it at the same time each day is you want to compare that to baseline. If you sleep in, then typically your temperature is going to be higher.

If you wake up earlier, your temperature is going to be lower. And so, you want to take it at the same time each day. so, you're not having that influence of sleeping in or getting up early. That's going to change your temperature. 

You want to get an accurate reading of your temperature each day. If you missed a temp on the weekend or sleep in on the weekend, it’s not the end of the world. You are still going to have enough data to interpret your chart. Fertility awareness charting should be able to adapt to your life. And it's not the end of the world if you miss a temp here or there.

There also are wearable thermometers that you can use if you don't want to wake up and take your temperature. I like Tempdrop, but there are other wearables that are being compared to oral temps that are being shown to be quite accurate in measuring temperature as well. So that's an option too. 

But I would say just start with an oral thermometer. Try to be as consistent as you can, and if you miss a day, just start again tomorrow. It's not the end of the world. If you miss it on the first day of your temperature shift, it just means you'll have to wait an extra day to confirm ovulation.

But for a lot of people, that's not a huge deal.

Nicole:Got it. Yeah. That's helpful to know that if your sleeping patterns are super irregular, you can try something like a wearable, to help with that as well.

Nathalie:Yeah. And I've also found, like I don't wake up at the same time every day and I've been using an oral thermometer for the past couple of cycles and there'll be a variation of half an hour or 45 minutes from the usual time that I wake up.

Because I typically, if I don't have anything to get up for, I won't set an alarm, I'll just wake up on my own. And I found that the temps are still really accurate. I think it's more if your regular temp to temp is 7:00 AM and you're sleeping in until 10 or 11, or you're getting up at 3 in the morning, that's when you're really going to see drastic changes to the chart.

But you might find that for you, it's not as sensitive if you temp like 45 minutes earlier or half an hour earlier or later than your normal time.

Nicole:Got it. Yeah, that's super helpful to know. And my last, I would say, FAM-related question, is about, people might start thinking about this when they are in a serious relationship or a monogamous relationship. 

But I'm curious about like what you would say to someone who is thinking about; how can I get my partner involved. What type of support should I talk to my partner about or if there is something that I should tell my partner before I do this?

Nathalie:Great question. From my experience, what I've heard from clients is the most common response is that their partner doesn't trust fertility awareness, and they feel like it's going to be a less effective option than hormonal birth control, because of that misconception around FAM.

So, explaining that it's not the rhythm method that it is a highly scientific method based on your biomarkers that's unique to you and you’re tracking your real-time fertility, explaining the physiology of ovulation, of the window fertility, and when conception can and can't occur. And even inviting your partner to listen to this podcast episode with you. 

Or, I have a free online course on FAM called FAM Fundamentals. Watch that with your partner or invite them to a workshop on fertility awareness or a fertility awareness session with a fertility awareness educator. Like, involve them in the research that you are doing, because they might not have done the same extensive research as you. And so, getting them involved in that can be a really good way of just kind of debunking some of those myths. 

And then I think it's also really important to communicate why you want to switch to FAM. If you are on hormonal birth control, and you want to switch for your mental health, for your physical health, I think having a heart-to-heart with your partner about why it's important to you. I would hope that they would appreciate the reasons that you want to come off and have your best health and mental health in mind and want the same for you, even if they're hesitant on the efficacy and what it exactly is.

If you communicate, you know why it's important to you, then I hope that opens up a conversation for them to really take it seriously and commit to kind of learning more about what it is.

Nicole:  Yeah. Thank you for that.  I think it's important to have people understand that it's something that will affect their partner too. And so, it's going to be a conversation that, or multiple conversations that might need to be had. And yeah. 

And one aspect about you that we haven't really talked about is that you are an entrepreneur, that you have fertility awareness projects, you have the Cycle Love course, and you also teach other people to be fertility instructors. Can you talk a little bit about that, what it's like to run your own business, and what it's like to teach other people to teach the fertility awareness method?

Nathalie:Yeah. I love running my own business. I find that the perfect combination of my passion for fertility awareness and then also my creative problem-solving side, and I'm so lucky that I get to do this for my job. It's honestly a dream come true and a dream that I never thought I would be able to live.

It is something that, yeah, it definitely comes with challenges and learning curves, and I didn't start this business with any prior business experience, so I have learned as I go basically. So, yeah, I think it comes very naturally to me, expressing myself and sharing this knowledge.

It has always been something that I've loved to do on social media. And then as I've shared, I've created a community of people who get my perspective and my approach and my vibe, and I just get to work with those people as clients. So, it's kind of a win-win. 

And I also really love fertility awareness education, and I'm really passionate about the work that fertility awareness educators do because of what we were talking about before like there is misinformation around wellness coaches and influencers.

There is a difference between coaches, health coaches, and fertility awareness educators. And there also is just a huge need in the space of fertility awareness education for evidence-based secular teacher training. There is no teacher training that I would wholeheartedly recommend without caveats.

It’s like every teacher training that exists has pros and cons, and I have gone through two teacher training programs. And a colleague, Tami Stroud and I have put together Fertility Knowledge Collective, which is not a teacher training program,

 but it's a knowledge-sharing program, where fertility awareness educators from all different methods and backgrounds, secular, religious, cervical mucus only, symptothermal, symptom hormonal, we come together and we share our knowledge. 

We share evidence-based approaches to interpreting fertility. We ask the hard questions and we dig into the research and what different methods say. So, I'm just really lucky that I get to work with Tami, who is an extremely experienced and skilled FAM educator who has been teaching for a long time, and just, all of this knowledge and nuance comes really naturally to her.

And so, I just get to work with Tami and we get to put together all of our ideas and present that to FAM educators and facilitate conversations. So that's what we do in Fertility Knowledge Collective. It's for fertility awareness educators. It's not a training program.

And then I teach clients in my online course Cycle Love. So, when I was first teaching fertility awareness, I was teaching in person and in groups and then moved to teaching online. I was teaching live every session. And then it evolved to pre-recording those live sessions, which are now dripped over three months. So, people have access to those lessons and watch them on their own time. Because I was finding that I was just repeating myself over and over and over again, and was able to just record all of that information. 

And then people really like being able to watch things on their own time. And then we also have live resources. So, group charting calls, live calls with me where we go over your chart. And then an online group, which is a really cool corner of the internet, for Cycle Love alumni where we continue to apply fertility charting to the lifespan, you know, beyond just taking cycle love, but all the things that come up as you're charting long term. 

So, there is a lot of moving parts to fertility awareness project,


Nathalie:I also have a business program for people who want to teach fertility awareness online. Basically, just sharing what I've learned over the years, what's worked and hasn't worked with online marketing, and creating an online course. So yeah, I definitely have a lot of ideas and do a lot of different things at once. But it's fun for me and it keeps me really interested in what I'm doing. 

And I think I get bored really easily, so I just kind of keep doing more things. So, I've been working at simplifying and really focusing on what works really well.

Like, for example, a lot of my clients find me on Instagram and I also have a TikTok. So why am I putting time into TikTok when I know Instagram works super well? Like really focusing on what is actually making a difference in my business, where people are actually finding me and putting more effort into those things.

Nicole:Amazing! Thank you for explaining and I'm so grateful that we could have this conversation today and for everything that you offer and the education that you are putting out there, and we will definitely put all of the links to what you offer in the show notes and also other materials that we've mentioned throughout the episode.

Thank you for walking us through so many things related to FAM and to really help people decide whether this is something that they want to start thinking about. And I really appreciate your time and being here today.

Nathalie:Yeah, it's been so fun chatting. I feel like we've covered so much ground in this episode, so, I'm really, really excited to be able to share it and it's just so great getting to connect with you in this capacity and to kind of catch up and, and see what you're up to as well, Nicole!

Nicole:Yes. Thank you, Nathalie! And yes, it was really great connecting with you and we really did talk a lot about so many different aspects of FAM, which I really appreciate. So, thank you! 

Nathalie:Yeah. Thank you so much!

Nicole:Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Multitudes and I hope you enjoyed my conversation with FAM Instructor Nathalie Daudet. And please be sure to check out the show notes for all of the links and resources that we talked about in this episode.

Thanks so much for listening.  And I'll see you next time.